http://www.paulgraham.com/discover.html

Bert

Atheism is NOT a belief system at all. I’m sure I will have to repeat this many more times until you understand, but I don’t mind. There is no doctrine, there are no directions, no guidance, no systems, no laws or rules. Again, saying atheism is a belief system is like saying that non-stamp collecting is a hobby.

Theism, as it pertains to Christianity, is a belief in the biblical god of The Bible. It comes with all of the books, the rules, the doctrine, the characters, the sects, the preachers and churches – everything. It is a religious belief system, called Christianity. And because the book exists, it has it’s groups of followers, even though they disagree on points of the book.

Atheists who claim that atheism is a belief system are wrong. It is nothing more than a disbelief in a god or gods. That’s it.

Maybe it would be better if you summarize the Swillpit piece in your own words as you understand it. In a nutshell, what does the piece mean to you? Then we can carry on from there if you want to discuss it.

I like your scoreboard thing – I have to tell you that this is a very common thing that believers do in debates against non-believers, they try to keep score and they are certain that every debate point clearly goes to them, simply because they believe! They don’t actually have to prove anything, since God is on their side!

I don’t have to make any direct connection, just the same one you made, i am just debating what you are saying. I told you your logic was flawed, if you disagree with me then I was right. What do you think this is court, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I was just following your logical statement and it has been debunked by you.

I guess you didn’t care too much about the comment of Tony Flew….God +1 atheism -1

Remember we don’t have to put him in the center, atheist manage to do this all by them selves.

If some of the Biblical descriptions of Jesus are true, I imagine it would be a very interesting conversation. I’m imagining a very kind, and considerate person. I am not imagining a divine being, who knows that I will burn in hell while he is conversing with me.

In the very recent past, it was a very bad idea to let anyone know that one had “homosexual” feelings. Even though we have plenty of evidence that homosexuality has been around for about as long as humans, in modern societies it has been hidden “in the closet” for fear of ridicule and shame by society. But, as is plainly clear, homosexuality is now out of the closet, and out in the open. Many people are now able to be open about their sexuality, and so far, six states allow same sex marriage. How did all of this come about?

It was a movement, a movement lead by brave people who were tired of being told that they were “bad” or “immoral” along with many other hateful sentiments hurled at them by self-righteous bigots and ignorant people. These leaders were “obsessed” with their cause, they clung to their mission as fervently as possible in order to get their voices heard, and slow down the spread of fear and hatred towards other humans for something as harmless as sex. Without these people “occupying their thoughts and conversations” with this issue, no progress would have ever been made. So it is with atheism.

Atheism has long been thought of as the most vile group one could admit to being a part of. Very strange that someone who doesn’t believe in God would be considered so horrifying, unless you are a Christian, or a Muslim. Richard Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist, who became a spokesperson for those who have no god beliefs by writing a book whose time had come. The topic of atheism, thanks to people like Dawkins, is now a very popular topic, and has inspired a very large number of non-believers to “come out of the closet.” Just like the gay communities around the world.

Speaking fervently, loudly, even harshly towards those who have little to no tolerance towards non-believers is something that I admire. I have joined that movement, although I don’t have an audience to speak of. If I am to speak out against oppressive religious beliefs, I have no choice but to use their own mythology against them. They are the ones dragging mythological stories into modern times, and in some cases, using their mythology to attempt to influence laws prohibiting things like same-sex marriage, and abortion.

Any atheist who is “consumed” by religious ideas, writings, gods, and mythologies is doing their homework! While on the other side of the debate, we have creationists and intelligent design proponents spending countless hours trying to debunk evolutionary theory in order to prop up their mythological stories of creation and design. The difference is this: if a creationist ever managed to prove anything that tears a huge hole in the current theory, it could easily be accepted into the scientific journals and help chart a new path of knowledge towards how life evolves. So far, nothing.

I’m not impressed by this Swillpit writing as it makes assertions, and attempts to place God into the center of everything all humans do, when it has no proof of the god it references. It is also a very lame argument to say that when someone immerses themselves in a topic, that said person has no control over what they accept and do not accept regarding the topic.

On the other hand, you can say that it is the people, and not the belief, but there is direct and certain evidence that people have used The Bible to support their actions. This can be proven over and over with very little effort. Just look at slavery as an example.

Your argument has been trotted out by so many that I can only conclude that you may have never actually done any serious research on the matter, but you are simply parroting what others before you have attempted.

If you can link atheism to the evil doings of Hitler, or Stalin, or any other dictator, you would be the first. Good luck!

Dear Swillpit,

Interesting, how humans can go through life without giving much serious thought to their faith. Oh yes, they may believe in a supreme Being and an afterlife. They may be members of a church, even leaders. They may have mouthed their allegiance to our Adversary. But beyond the sanctuary walls, they live as if He and His teachings are largely irrelevant. You have your demonic forebears to thank for this.

After generations assailing their spiritual yearnings, we learned that allowing them a small space for religion is better than allowing no space at all. Surprised?

I know it sounds strange, but the more adamantly they reject religion, the more it occupies their thoughts and conversations. In fact, a hardened atheist is apt to spend more of his mental energies pondering “God” and religion than the most ardent believer.

Remember Sigmund, how he was obsessed with the question of “God” till the end of his life. It was even the subject of last book. Today, dear Dickie Dawkins is following suit. His chart-busting book, The God Delusion, marks the apogee of a career built around the question. It is a cruel irony that the more they insist the matter settled, the more their thoughts are haunted with it, and the more their lives are directed by it.

That’s because the Enemy has stacked the deck. He fashioned them to run optimally when they are filled with Him. If they try to run on anything less, sooner or later, they will experience a itch they can’t scratch, an unease that won’t subside, or… an irrepressible need to rant about a Being that does not exist (funny, how the irrationality of that rarely occurs to them!).

It is the natural consequence of maintaining the swirl of contradictions that their unbelief imposes upon them — like the insistence of universal human rights in a universe bereft of a rights-Giver. For the tortured soul who values intellectual integrity, keeping the throng of conflicting notions suspended requires constant effort that, for some, just becomes too much.

Oh, how many we have lost in their twilight years! Who could have imagined that the most celebrated atheist of his time, Tony Flew, would have abandoned a lifetime of disbelief? I fear the same fate awaits our dear Dickie.

Yet those who religiously attend their God in the church hour can, with scant coaxing from us, leave Him there. You see, Swillpit, religion is like a vaccine: a little dose can inoculate a patient from its totalizing effects. A trifling measure is all it takes to dull their spiritual senses, making His whisperings fade in the cacophony of voices in the world outside.

Content that their spiritual house is in order, they easily drift into lifestyles, and even attitudes, that are practicably indistinguishable from their unbelieving neighbors. And as their neighbors look on, they are left to conclude that a faith that makes no difference in lives of the faithful is one having no moral authority.

There, my boy, is our silver lining: For should we, hell forbid, lose the immunized believer to his Maker, he has made the job of winning others much the easier for us. Indeed, his kind has done as much (maybe more) to fill our banquet hall as Nietzsche, Freud, and Dawkins. If it weren’t for him, I fear there would be a perpetual famine down here.

As you will recall from my earlier letter, we can’t eradicate their transcendent longing, but we can divert them to other objects, like Reason, Nature or Progress… or allow them short rein in their devotion to Him.

Over the course of human history, the latter has proven to be much more useful to Hell, and more easily accomplished, too! The key is to work with, rather than against, their natural leanings.

One of our top Tempters put it this way: “It’s like the two strategies in pitching baseball: In the first, you get the batter to think your going to throw one kind of pitch, and throw something else. For instance, if he’s looking for a fastball you throw a change-up. In the second, you find out what kind of pitch the batter likes, and throw it ‘almost there.’ If he likes it low, you pitch it a little too low. If he likes it inside, you pitch it a little too inside. That’s what I do with my playthings — pitch it ‘almost there.’”

Here’s how it works, Swillpit: If they’re looking for love, pitch them lust; if security, pitch self-sufficiency; if grace, indulgence; if rest, sloth. Because of their carnal inclinations, they can be quite easily duped, even willingly so, by these pitches. But far and away, your best pitch is religiosity — religion, reduced to its most superficial and least demanding elements.

Much to our delight, a little religiosity goes a long way. Just an hour of special music, perfunctory prayers, and anecdotal preaching is enough to immunize all but the most difficult cases against His promptings for the rest of the week.

Fortunately for you, your man is already in the immunized state. So don’t begrudge his devotional time. Patiently indulge him his hour; then he’s yours, a plaything to immerse in the values we have smuggled into the world.

This will be more challenging now that he has been struck by tragedy. His sister’s painful and untimely death will certainly push his faith, front and center. As long as evil remained a theological concept or something experienced by others, he was content with standard Sunday school answers. Now that Evil has visited his doorstep, he is finding little comfort there.

Although upward thoughts are sure consume his energies over the next days and weeks, you have a prime opportunity to tip the scales decisively in our favor. Just stay attentive to his moods, and ply your skills according to his vulnerabilities, and you can guide him down a path of thought that progresses from questions to doubts to apostasy.

Have you noticed whether he has begun raising his voice to his Maker: How could you let this happen? What purpose could this serve? She was so young, with a full life before her. Oh, how we loved her! Where are you when it hurts?

If not — he will, Swillpit, he will.

When disasters hit home their thoughts go instinctively to “Why me?”, “Why this?”, “Why now?”, “WHY?” It is a natural crossroads of faith: will they trust Him and His promises or their eyes and their circumstances? That’s when we step up sowing doubt into their tortured thinking.

The fact that this fellow had been praying, day and night, for his sister’s healing should make your task all the easier. For the first time in his life he is open to a line of questioning that never troubled him before: Is God uncaring, negligent or malevolent, or are some problems are just too big for Him? Can I, should I, submit to a Deity that cannot or will not control a world gone wrong? Maybe he’s just a myth.

Help him see his loss as part of a pattern of Divine indifference. Draw his attention to the mind-numbing devastation of natural disasters — earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes. But be careful to steer him clear of the truth that, without the phenomena of plate tectonics, his planet would be covered in water, uninhabitable, save for aquatic life.

But a word of caution: Even the commanding leverage we enjoy in cases like this does not ensure our victory. Need I remind you about Job? There was a wretch that experienced the full blast of hellish attention. Yet, bewilderingly, the crushing losses he sustained, and despite the urging of his wife, he refused to turn his back on the Adversary. We’re still trying to figure out what went wrong.

All we know, from centuries and centuries of field experience, is that no amount of personal misfortune guarantees our success. But if we remain vigilant, seeking and creating opportunities to work our wiles, our chances are significantly improved.

So stay at the shoulder of your charge. Occupy his thoughts with questions having no satisfying answers this side of the grave — especially to those reeling under the onslaught of life’s injustices. Convince him that he is owed an explanation, and should demand one. Then, when he lifts his fist to heaven, you can relish the sound of his grinding teeth as he endures the prolonged silence.

That, Swillpit, is one of the sweetest sounds you can enjoy as a Tempter.

Fitfully Yours,

S.

Lets not separate the “bad people” from those that have a belief in atheism or a lack a belief in God. I know you want to claim that atheism is not the cause of bad things that bad people do, but you would be patently wrong to try to make this claim. I will never claim that ALL atheist people are bad just because they don’t believe in God. But I will not allow atheism off the hook……sound familiar.

What I think is worse is that atheists don’t have a consensus of what it means to be atheists? So by your argument you run the risk of being lumped in to that general group.

Don’t get me wrong here, I am in disagreement if these murders were carried out on behave of Christianity. These are ignorant people that have chosen to cherry pick and come up with their own belief system that makes sense only to them.

Here is a quote from Stalin and he was an atheist:
Stalin is quoted as saying “You know, they are fooling us, there is no God…all this talk about God is sheer nonsense”

How about the things below that are associated with atheism? I would be incorrect in associating them with you but not by your agreement from above!

“Communism begins where atheism begins…” (Karl Marx)

“The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion” (Karl Marx)

“I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above.” (Karl Marx)

“The hellish vapors rise and fill the brain, till I go mad and my heart is utterly changed. See this sword? The prince of darkness sold it to me.” (Karl Marx)

“With disdain I will throw my gauntlet full in the fact of the world and see the collapse of this pygmy giant. Then will I wander god-like and victorious through the ruins of the world. And giving my words an active force, I will feel equal to the Creator.” (Karl Marx)

“Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.” (attributed to Vladimir I. Lenin)

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.” (V.I. Lenin)

“There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel.” (V.I. Lenin)

“We do not fight against believers and not even clergymen. WE FIGHT AGAINST GOD to snatch believers from Him.” (Vechernaia Moskva, a Soviet newspaper)

“Let us drive out the Capitalists from the earth, and God from Heaven!” (early Soviet slogan)

I don’t think you have a very convincing point of view since at the root it is humans that are the cause.