jump to navigation

God Commands Cruelty and Violence October 13, 2009

Posted by jetson in Personal.
Tags: , , , , , , , , , , ,
trackback

The Christian God is immoral, according to The Bible.  I am probably the millionth-plus person to think this, but I feel I must join those who do not see the goodness of God in the pages of The Bible.  Is there goodness in The Bible?  I suppose it could be argued so, but what difference does it make if the cruelty and violence is at least equal to the love and compassion?  Before I go on, I have to admit that I am still reading The Bible.  So far, I’m not impressed.

I told some Christian friends today that I am above their god when it comes to morality, because I would never commit the crimes I read about in the chapters.  How could I anyway, I’m not an all powerful entity.  For example, in Genesis 6:7, God is clearly unhappy with His creation, and declares that He will destroy man.  This is cruelty at it’s worst, if you ask me.  I have heard that this act is defensible because we are Gods creation, and God retains the right to destroy His own creation if He so chooses.  Where is the love and goodness in destroying all humans, even if they are guilty? Where is the compassion?

Revelations 6:10-11 is yet to come, and it seems to be an indication that more killing by God himself is on its way – I can’t wait to feel the love!  In 2 Peter 3:7, we get more love and goodness as God sets fire to the entire earth so that all non-believers will burn.   You’re killing me, God!  Apparently though, He has given me plenty of warning, so if I choose to deny Gods grace, then I deserve to burn to death, or even more exciting, burn in an everlasting lake of fire for the rest of eternity.  Obviously, I deserve it – look at all the damage I’ve done to Gods pride.

I am now thoroughly convinced that the god of The Bible actually requires killing humans, much like His old habit of requiring animal sacrifice.  He does so with reckless abandon in the Old Testament, and does a nice hand-off to Jesus in the New Testament.  Luckily though, there really is only one evil God in this case!  Or is it three?  Who knows.

Advertisements

Comments»

1. Brian Culliton - October 13, 2009

If you were about to be beaten to death by a gang of thugs and I stepped in and took your place so you could live, would you think I was cruel?

That is the heart of God and He displayed it 2000 years ago. You don’t have an eternal perspective by which you can judge God’s actions. You can only judge from your own very limited perspective. I recommend finishing the book you began and honestly search for the heart of God in it.

I find it a bit peculiar how you pull out what you want to convey and leave out what you wish to suppress. You mention that God will “destroy all humans,” but fail to mention that first He will offer them time to repent. That sounds like compassion to me.

Ponder this: if you hate God, why do you expect compassion from Him?

jetson - October 13, 2009

So is it safe to say that you think Jesus’ sacrifice made up for God, His Father, destroying man? I am certainly not going to accept any God without first passing judgment on that god, after all – this is eternal salvation, is it not?

I don’t hate God. God is a man-made, mythological character, just like the thousands of gods before and after Him. It is definitely a mistake to assume everyone agrees with The Bible, it’s stories, and it’s God.

I find it peculiar that many Christians won’t acknowledge the cruelty that is obvious in The Bible, and choose only to convey the love and goodness. But for the sake of discussion, I do acknowledge there is love and goodness in The Bible, but I can’t allow it to excuse the cruelty and violence unchecked.

2. sg - October 14, 2009

Let me start out by asking a question, are you a God? What super natural powers do you have that entitles you to judge the actions of God? I think you suffer from pride? A human attribute, don’t your children rebel against you, don’t they think they know more, would do it better?

God maybe man-made to you, but the reality but the ponderousness of the evidence and the massive fine-tuning of the universe and huge improbabilities for the origins of life, and life itself is beyond human capacity ~ how many times does science revise itself (oops we got it wrong because we assumed). Science does not address the why just the how if they can discover it. But God did say that he would not reveal everything because humans were not capable of understanding the greater plan?

Can you create a universe, are you perfect? What Godly school did you attend that makes you qualified to judge God? Have you ever done wrong? Can you transcend outside the space time continuum?

How can good be evil if he creates and destroys things for a greater purpose? Are you judging God? How do you know that they were destroyed in the eternal realm? Sounds like you are jumping to conclusions based on half trues.

jetson - October 15, 2009

There is no evidence that any particular god is real. Until then, it is safe to go about our lives believing if we choose, or not believing if we choose. You have chosen to believe in God, therefore, you have, in your mind, evidence for God. If you have evidence, you need only show it to the world and see how it is accepted.

My guess is that it is evidence based mostly on faith, ancient writings, and stories of miracles, which does not impress everyone. Most humans will reject your evidence for God, not only because some are non-believers, but many believe in a completely different god. At this time in human history, it is safe to continue to learn about our world and our universe using the scientific method, and let the gods fight amongst themselves for awhile.

Will the real god please stand up!

3. Brian Culliton - October 15, 2009

Then the purpose of you blog is to offend Christians? Why else would you accuse a God you do not believe is real of cruelty, unless your purpose is to offend those who do believe in Him? What do you get out of it?

jetson - October 15, 2009

The purpose of this blog is to have my own voice for non-belief, as well as to point out the reasons why I don’t believe. I do realize there are plenty of believers who are kind, caring, and who don’t find it necessary to insert their beliefs into other peoples lives, or into the laws of our country.

If pointing out the cruelty committed by the god of The Bible is offensive, then I would submit that the person who is offended either needs to grow a stronger backbone, or they need to consider that maybe the god they worship is not as loving and kind as they thought.

Of course, to your point, it seems silly for me to criticize a god I think is mythical, but it is literally the only way I can point out the flawed thinking in this particular religion. That is, Christianity is definitely not the best we can come up with as far as a loving almighty god for all humans! Isn’t that obvious given the amount of disagreement humans have had over the thousands of generations so far?

4. sg - October 17, 2009

Their is no backbone I need to grow, i know what my God did. He cleared the path for the messiah to arrive. He is just showing his almighty power in clearing the way. You did say, show me he is a GOD??? correct? Well here it is. Sorry it might not meet up to your humanistic standards but who are you to judge GOD? He has a perfect plan even if it involves the slaughter of evil and anyone associated to them. God has a plan for them too. All that accept GOD will have eternal life, even the babies that he scoped up from earthly damnation that were associated to those continuing to do evil. How much more loving is it to scope all the babies that would have turned to evil ways because of their parents evil ways?

But if you are hell bent in seeing things your way or imposing your human judgment on the one and only GOD then it sounds like you are suffering from human pride.

After all the almighty, ever powerful, transcendent GOD loved you beyond measure that he gave you free will.

Here are some famous words:
My King was born King. The Bible says He’s a Seven Way King. He’s the King of the Jews – that’s a racial King. He’s the King of Israel – that’s a National King. He’s the King of righteousness. He’s the King of the ages. He’s the King of Heaven. He’s the King of glory. He’s the King of kings and He is the Lord of lords. Now that’s my King. Well I wonder if you know Him. Do you know Him? Don’t try to mislead me. Do you know my King? David said the Heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament show His handiwork. My King is the only one whom there are no means of measure can define His limitless love. No far seeing telescope can bring into visibility the coastline of His shore of supplies. No barriers can hinder Him from pouring out His blessing. Well, well, He’s enduringly strong. He’s entirely sincere. He’s eternally steadfast. He’s immortally graceful. He’s imperially powerful. He’s impartially merciful. That’s my King. He’s God’s Son. He’s the sinner’s saviour. He’s the centrepiece of civilization. He stands alone in Himself. He’s honest. He’s unique. He’s unparalleled. He’s unprecedented. He’s supreme. He’s pre-eminent. Well, He’s the grandest idea in literature. He’s the highest personality in philosophy. He’s the supreme problem in high criticism. He’s the fundamental doctrine of proved theology. He’s the carnal necessity of spiritual religion. That’s my King. He’s the miracle of the age. He’s the superlative of everything good that you choose to call Him. Well, He’s the only one able to supply all of our needs simultaneously. He supplies strength for the weak. He’s available for the tempted and the tried. He sympathizes and He saves. He’s strong God and He guides. He heals the sick. He cleanses the lepers. He forgives sinners. He discharged debtors. He delivers the captives. He defends the feeble. He blesses the young. He serves the unfortunate. He regards the aged. He rewards the diligent and He beautifies the meek. Do you know Him? Well, my King is a King of knowledge. He’s the wellspring of wisdom. He’s the doorway of deliverance. He’s the pathway of peace. He’s the roadway of righteousness. He’s the highway of holiness. He’s the gateway of glory. He’s the master of the mighty. He’s the captain of the conquerors. He’s the head of the heroes. He’s the leader of the legislatures. He’s the overseer of the overcomers. He’s the governor of governors. He’s the prince of princes. He’s the King of kings and He’s the Lord of lords. That’s my King. Yeah. Yeah. That’s my King. My King, yeah. His office is manifold. His promise is sure. His light is matchless. His goodness is limitless. His mercy is everlasting. His love never changes. His Word is enough. His grace is sufficient. His reign is righteous. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. Well. I wish I could describe Him to you, but He’s indescribable. He’s indescribable. Yes. He’s incomprehensible. He’s invincible. He’s irresistible. I’m coming to tell you, the heavens of heavens cannot contain Him, let alone a man explaining Him. You can’t get Him out of your mind. You can’t get Him off of your hands. You can’t outlive Him and you can’t live without Him. Well, Pharisees couldn’t stand Him, but they found out they couldn’t stop Him. Pilot couldn’t find any fault in Him. The witnesses couldn’t get their testimonies to agree. Herod couldn’t kill Him. Death couldn’t handle Him and the grave couldn’t hold Him. That’s my King. Yeah. Praise the Lord. That’s my King. Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory. Well, all the power belongs to my King. We’re around here talking about black power and white power and green power, but it’s God’s power. Thine is the power. Yeah. And the glory. We try to get prestige and honour and glory for ourselves, but the glory is all His. Yes. Thine is the Kingdom and the power and glory, forever and ever and ever and ever. How long is that? And ever and ever and ever and ever. And when you get through with all of the evers, then, Amen.

jetson - October 17, 2009

The backbone comment was for those who are offended by my views and comments. A simple rebuttal that proves God is not cruel and violent is all it would take to set me straight. Fortunately, I can read The Bible like anyone else, and so far, I see no way out of the fact that God orders humans to be killed, and it would take a miracle to convince me that every single man, woman, and child deserved to be killed. If any of the genocidal stories are true, they are hardly different from the way humans have treated each other over history, some being far more barbaric than others – with no god required.

I am not “hell bent” on seeing things my way. And I certainly don’t “suffer” from human pride. God either exists, or He does not – I suspect you would not argue with that statement? My position is that there are no real gods. They are all man-made. Your position, if I may, is that the god of The Bible, the Christian god, exists. You are 100% certain of this, and you hold no possibility that you are wrong. If that is not a correct statement, let me know.

The only position you can hold in this discussion is that non-believers and believers in other religions are wrong. And you are 100% sure of this. Which means that this is not really a discussion at all, rather, it is an impasse that can only be resolved if I pretend that you are correct by lying to you and telling you that I finally see the light (so to speak!)

Here is the challenge. Christianity presents nothing that is convincing enough to make me pause and consider God as anything beyond imaginary. The Bible is filled with stories that contradict what a “loving” father would actually do. Many people have abandoned Christianity simply by reading The Bible themselves (as opposed to having certain passages read to them in church each week.) The Bible is also filled with supernatural stories, and stories of miracles which include events that are impossible to verify, or that have never occurred in nature. It is not believable at all to consider a talking snake, or a man living inside the stomach of a whale for three days, or woman being impregnated by a god.

These things are enough to convince me that God does not exist. Not to mention the things that convince me that if He was real, I would not feel compelled to worship Him. After all, if my own father told me to kill someone that he thought was evil or who didn’t believe in him, I would run in the other direction. When God orders killing in The Bible, it is always wrong. I am the judge and jury in this case, and I condemn all orders to kill by the god of The Bible as unjust, evil, and immoral. If I am wrong, perhaps God can kill me whenever He pleases?

I remember being locked under the covers in my bed as a child, all of my muscles frozen solid, staring intently at the closet door, wondering when the monster would come and get me. There was never a monster in there – but boy was it EVER so real in my mind.

5. Is There A Monster In Your Closet? « Jet Blog - October 17, 2009

[…] There A Monster In Your Closet? By jetson In a recent comment I made, I pointed out an analogy regarding the childhood fear of a monster in the closet.  There […]

6. Brian Culliton - October 17, 2009

Compare these passages to the Gospel and tell me why you think I should not be convinced that God is real.

Isaiah 700 B.C.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

jetson - October 17, 2009

Brian,

I have read Isaiah. Can you tell me, in your opinion, why 7:14 doesn’t say Jesus instead of Immanuel? Can you add your opinion on why there has never been a “virgin” birth in nature, but there have been multiple virgin births across different religions over human history? And why scholars say that the Hebrew translation of “almah” means “young woman” as opposed to “virgin”?

Today, there have been no cases of fulfilled prophecy by anyone. Sometimes, prophecy is just vague enough to allow the possibility that it is real, but in my opinion, not enough detail to be truly impressive. For example, if Isaiah 7:14 was written 700 years prior to the birth of a man named Jesus, who would ultimately be considered to be God Himself, even 2,000 years later, an impressive prophecy would read like this:

In 700 years, on March 3, My son Jesus will be born, and He will walk among you and share My Word. Jesus will give his life for you 33 years later on a Roman cross. He will be both human and God, and many of you will not believe in Him. A new religion will be born called Christianity, which will be guided by the following Gospels: etc. etc. etc.

I need to do more research on Biblical prophecy, as I have only read a few things regarding. Generally speaking, I think prophecy needs to be far more detailed in order to eliminate vague predictions and coincidence.

Brian Culliton - October 17, 2009

No prophecy is written to be obvious so as to clearly show its fulfillment to even those that lack faith. Faith is a requirement as I am sure you know, otherwise the prophecies would be crystal clear to everyone. If the prophecies were undeniably true and everyone could see that, there would be no need for faith. And if there were no need for faith I don’t know why there would be any need for this journey of life. Immanuel means “God with us,” and Jesus, or Joshua, means “savior.” The two names, along with all the other comparisons should enable one who truly seeks to understand, to figure out the correlation.

It is true that the passage in Isaiah 7 is not properly translated “virgin.” Of course it would not be much of a sign if it is translated “young woman.” But that is a good point and one certainly worth questioning. The New Testament record is where it becomes clear what Isaiah was prophesying. Other “virgin” birth stories that I know of formed after Christianity began and are sometimes attributed to earlier times for the purpose of discrediting our faith.

What I wanted to get from you is whether or not you are able to understand why I and millions of others do believe.

I understand why you have this blog; it’s the same reason I have mine, but with an entirely different perspective. It is good that we question these things as long as we do it with honesty and sincerity.

7. sg - October 17, 2009

you are starting to sound a bit ignorant on the subject, and again your pride is getting in the way of how you want to define God to be. Remember he is God not you. He does not live up to your expectations, after all he is the King of Kings, the almighty GOD.

God is not going to align on how you want things done. Although many people think that he does, but its the other way around, we start to align to his thinking, his moral compass, not ours.

He loved you before you born and before he made you that he gave you free will. Come back to him when you can trust in Jesus and accept him, he will always be waiting for you with open arms. He is the sinners Savior. The sooner is always better since we are not guaranteed any future days.

jetson - October 17, 2009

I am very aware of the many attributes and tenets of Christianity and its god, and its gods attributes – it appears to me that you are blissfully UNAWARE of the 30,000 sects of Christianity that do not believe the same things you do.

Since I am on the outside, looking in, I am able to question everything. I am able to consider how cruel and petty some of the attributes of the Christian god are. I am able to consider that Gods moral compass is about the same as a person who lived in pre-modern times, using cruel and unusual punishment techniques, and nailing people to crosses, as well as treating women as property and owning and beating slaves. That moral compass is not one I would ever consider to be worthy of my time.

As much as you would like to place your god above me, you simply cannot. You can certainly consider that an attribute of your god, and put me in my proper place as a sinful, fallen, imperfect human, but I will do no such thing. I will not stand by and allow myself to be controlled by the fear and pettiness of a jealous, vengeful, and hateful god.

I really don’t want or need this particular god, so I’m not impressed by His words, or by His laws. And I will certainly not align myself to His thinking!

You are right about one thing though, He does NOT live up to my expectations at all.

8. sg - October 18, 2009

You can say that you are looking from the outside in, but it is GOD that is truly looking from the outside, outside from space and time. You can say whatever you want about your comparisons, GOD gave you free will. He still has ultimate authority over everything, including you.

I can see from your words that you are certainly beneath God. You are just a mere mortal not wanting or willing to accept your mortal fate, and your place in eternity. I don’t feel any need to place you beneath GOD, you do this on your own very well, every day, every minute, we all do.

No one controls you, you have free will. Do as you please, think what you must. You can’t scare my God or destroy him with any of your words. I see that more of your uncertainty comes out as you let your hate run away from you. Seems that you have some deeply rooted issues. Why do you hate God or the thought of God. Where is the thought of being open minded gone?

And of course God doesn’t meet your expectations, you have human expectations with limits and boundaries, God’s are limitless, boundless, infinite.

You can say what you want, but it still doesn’t discount that GOD exists.

You are not the first to discount or hate GOD. What i find weird is that you say he doesn’t exist but you sure argue like he does.

jetson - October 18, 2009

I have told you before that I grant God the benefit of the doubt, as it seems to be the only way to discuss anything with believers. Although we remain at an impasse, imagine how difficult it would be to converse if I insisted on empirical, testable, verifiable evidence of God before I were willing to discuss anything else.

Now, to put things in their proper perspective, if I told you about Hortia, god of the Universe, and that Hortia gives you free will, and has ultimate authority – how exactly would you respond? I mean, I have a book written by Hortia (not written by her human creation), and Hortia knows that you are worshiping an ancient god created by humans thousands of years earlier. Hortia does not interfere with humans, but Hortia knows which humans are truthful, honest, loving, and caring – she knows this because she is inside of each of us and feels the exact truth of our actions, reactions, and feelings – so she is well aware of a persons innocence or guilt in any given situation.

You are free to dismiss Hortia, and even laugh at me for even thinking you might be worshiping the wrong god. So here’s a few questions:

1) Do you hate Hortia?
2) Does Hortia cause you to pause and wonder about her being real?
3) Do you worry about things you’ve done in the past that Hortia is already aware of?
4) Do you want to see the book of Hortia, just to make sure?
5) Do you have even a single concern about this god?

I am sure you can see where I am going with this, and I am sure you are laughing inside at the moment. I’m sure you have all the smugness and righteousness of a strong believer of your religion, and I’m sure you know that my comments don’t matter since you are already in possession of the ultimate god and the ultimate truth – so you flippantly dismiss my god scenario.

Welcome to my world! And for the record, I do not hate any of the gods including the creator of the universe, Hortia.

9. sg - October 18, 2009

It doesn’t sound like you grant God anything. You suffer from pride of life.

I tell you God exists but you deny it, i tell you i feel immense love, beyond measure from GOD and you still deny it. Much like when you tell me you have a headache and i would tell you i deny that you have a headache. This is first hand information.

As for the last part all you have done is substituted a make believe character for GOD.

What smugness or righteousness do you speak of? Because the way i see it it is the other way around. Where have i made fun of you, or attack you for your way of life? i think it is quite the opposite, you feel the need to dismiss my GOD and I tell it just can’t be done, mnay have tried and failed. What is even stronger evidence, they have proven that the only way to God is to accept Jesus.

I am sorry to tell you but you are the one with the GOD complex, thinks they are better than GOD, would do things more according to your way. I see you as suffering from human pride, cannot and will not humble yourself.

i still see that you are very much engaged in disproving God, something that you say doesn’t exist but you sure do spend a lot energy talking about God. I tell you, i think you are searching for God.

Keep searching, i know you will find him. I think he is knocking on your door.

10. jetson - October 18, 2009

I do not suffer from “pride of life” at all. This is your personal assertion based on your religious beliefs, correct? So you have asserted something about me that you cannot sustain through anything but your personal belief.

I do not deny you the love you feel from God at all. My non-belief should in no way negate your belief – that is never what I am attempting to do. If I cannot defend my position as you do yours, then what would you have me do?

I do not believe in God, because I see no reason to. That is my personal belief, and you do not need to be concerned in any way, nor should my disbelief have any effect on yours. If I dismiss your God, it is not a personal attack on you, or any other believer.

I do not think that I am better than something that does not exist. If God does not exist, than I cannot be “better.” This is where you need to come to terms with what I am doing with my personal beliefs. You may KNOW that I am wrong, but you may not assume that I am somehow denying, hating, or attacking that which I believe is non-existent. I am simply stating my position, which does not include your god.

I am in no way trying to disprove God – I am simply sharing my views on the topic, as well as trying to understand what makes people believe in something that is by definition, non-existent (outside of space and time as we know it.) That definition is no different to me than being non-existent. I know you do not agree, and I grant you that position because it is none of my business to be concerned about your beliefs.

I think we can have valuable conversations, and share information, as long as we remain true to our beliefs and positions. I do not make personal attacks, and if I do, you should point it out so that I can apologize, or explain.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: