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Atheism is not a Truth Claim December 24, 2009

Posted by jetson in Personal.
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Atheism is not a truth claim. I picked up this idea from the Richard Dawkins forum, where a member posted the message. I like it because it helps people understand that atheism does not make a claim that gods do not exist. Rather, they simply don’t believe the claims. Yes, some atheists, including me, will make statements that gods are imaginary, or that they cannot exist, or any other claim in order to make a point. Most of the time, the point is to help believers understand why they don’t believe, or perhaps to show believers that there are other points of view that don’t agree with theirs. This approach by some atheists does present some issues.

One concern is that we literally could not have a conversation at all if we don’t ocassionally give the benefit of the doubt to believers. In other words, we must presume that a god is real, so that we can discuss the merits of the belief. Many atheists refuse to do this at all, instead insisting that a believer prove their god is real before moving deeper into the discussion. Again, no believer has been able to prove a god, so it makes the debate sort of pointless to wait for proof. I suppose the atheist could simply refrain from the debate altogether, but that doesn’t sit well with those who believe that some religions, and their followers, are dangerous, and need to be challenged head on. Not to mention the hatred and bigotry that is outwardly shown towards non-believers.

I don’t know any atheists who would claim absolutely that a specific god does not exist. They always allow for the possibility because there is literally no way to prove that a god does not exist. As well, most atheists that I have read, or conversed with, are willing to accept credible evidence for a specific god, and some of them are former believers. Before they abandoned their god beliefs, they took the time to research their faith claims and concluded that the evidence was insufficient to claim a real god. They are now on the non-believer side of the fence, hoping to help others shed the make believe world they cling so tightly to.

So, as an atheist, and with regards to all of the gods ever named by humans, I am open to all possibilities. And, like most atheists I know, I will not accept personal testaments, I will not accept words from The Bible, I will not accept miracle healings of a 2000 year old dead man, and I will not accept philosophical guesses that match someones beliefs. I have spent enough time in churches, and going through sacraments, praying at bedtime, eating the body of Christ, and confessing my sins to someone I don’t know. I will no longer attempt to “find god” through someones instructions on how to do so, as there are far too many different instructions to know if I did it right. And I will certainly not “have faith” or “just believe” or “simply accept Jesus” in order to find a truth about a god. I want real proof and real evidence.

I realize that believers will be unable to provide the type of evidence I am looking for, and some will even claim that I think I am better than their god by asking for solid proof. I say, so what. If a god cannot make itself known to me, than that god is not worth my consideration at all. As a father myself, I would never hide from my child and make him find me. I open my arms, scoop up my child, and love my child. Name one god that does that.

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Comments»

1. zebulonthered - December 24, 2009

Brilliant!! I could not have said it better myself.

2. SG - December 25, 2009

The one and only God is the Christian Judeo God. He does not hide, you do not need to go and look for him. He always has his arms wide open, scoping all his children that hear his voice.

Let me ask you, does your child run to any father or just to you? How does he know your his father? God is no different.

I see you have fancy words at the beginning to try and distort things, but in the end atheism is a belief, it is your belief. You have to be willing to accept that God does not exist, but you can’t with 100% certainty, therefore this is your belief.

jetson - December 26, 2009

A real, loving, caring father is there every day – in the flesh. He loves, cares for, and guides his children. His children know exactly who he is simply because he is right there in front of them, doing what good fathers do. Good fathers and mothers teach their children immediately to be wary of strangers. That’s why they know who their father is.

God has never been anything close to a real father because he is extremely invisible. The god you want to claim is real, is impossible for most humans to accept due to his invisibility, and his petty, self-righteous attributes.

Atheism: disbelief in a god or gods.

That’s all it is. No matter how you slice it, dis-belief in a thing does not require belief, since it is not a positive claim about anything.

3. zebulonthered - December 26, 2009

SG – If Christianity is true, and you are a true Christian prove it to yourself and record the following test. That way we can believe to.

Get together with two or three fellow Christians and pray that Jesus show himself in physical form. If he does then we will all know he really is the son of god. If he doesn’t we can all stop wasting our time arguing about myths.

According to the bible if true believers ask for anything in his name he will grant it. (John 14:14)
According to the bible he will be there with you. (Mat.18:20)
And he has shown himself in a similar maner before. (Acts 9:3)

Please try this simple test. I know you will come up with one sad excuse or another not to, but I thought I would ask anyway.

4. SG - December 27, 2009

zebulonthered — No problem, no sad excuse – you need to keep reading, don’t stop there you are onto a good start. According to the Bible God grants anything that is in his plan, in his time, so everyone will get to see Jesus, the Son of God. Therefore you too can believe!

Jetson — God is there everyday. He is not there in the flesh because He is God and He is immortal and lives outside the space time continuum. He gave us His Son, Jesus who was here in the flesh, who gave us the gift of eternal salvation. We know of Him (God) thru prayer and our relationship with God. You may perceive God as self-righteous but this is in the world according to Jetson, which is filled with pride. I don’t think that you would allow any type of make believe Thor or any other fictional character to posses everything that you would require of God, because I am certain that you would even find fault in your own thinking.

A belief my dear Jetson is not incumbent on a positive statement but on what the statement is saying. Study some higher level math courses, because sometimes proving the negative you end up proving the positive. However the negative is still a belief! So I am very sorry to burst your bubble, but atheism is most certainly a belief!

Oh by the way — Happy belated CHRISTmas! He is the reason for the season!

jetson - December 27, 2009

I’ve always said that believers are free to believe whatever they want to believe. That is also true for non-believers. You see, beliefs without evidence are nothing more than beliefs, they are personal, and they do not require anyone to agree.

If you want to continue to state that disbelief is a belief, you might want to consult a dictionary. It’s amazing to me how much you completely ignore anything that does not agree with your views.

I won’t bother to tell you that atheism is not a belief any more because it is not getting through to you at all. It’s like you have a belief that atheism is a belief, and you;re not about to let go of ANY of your beliefs – even if they are actually dis-beliefs!

This particular blog is pointing out something very specific – that atheism does not make a truth claim. The vocal and outspoken atheists are NOT claiming anything, they are mostly asking believers to provide evidence of their particular god. When that evidence does not appear, as it never has since the first god was created, the conclusion is that gods are not real, at least none so far.

If an atheist goes beyond that level of disbelief, and begins to make positive assertions that there is no god, it is almost always a method of continuing the debate caused by the positive assertion that a god is actually real. I challenge you to find an atheist that will say that a god is 100% untrue. That person would be told by other atheists that the statement cannot be asserted, as it is literally impossible to prove that ANYTHING in particular DOES NOT exist. That is precisely why we don’t do that.

Atheists are NOT claiming anything – they are simply not believing the very positive, 100% truth claims of believers who cannot prove anything using ANY methodology. They simply make assertions about their beliefs, make high and mighty claims with nothing to back it up but personal beliefs, and constantly refer to a book that is nothing but pages and pages of words, most of which have no bearing on the world today – things like how to treat your slave.

No matter how you slice a persons god, it comes up invisible, from outside of everything, impossible to understand, impossible to prove, and always perfectly matched to the believers wishes. Believers make the positive assertion, and cannot back it up. Those who try, like you, appeal to your personal thoughts and interpretations, and for some reason you think it should all be perfectly clear, and is so totally obvious. Tell that to the more than 50% of the humans who either never heard of Jesus, who don’t have any god beliefs, or who would tell you in no uncertain terms that you have chosen the wrong god.

zebulonthered - December 27, 2009

SG – Does that mean you will not be doing the test? “According to the Bible God grants anything that is in his plan, in his time”? This isn’t an excuse? Really? John 14:14 “You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” This verse says nothing about gods plan or timing. It’s a flat promise. Was Jesus lying? Is it time you you to throw in the towel and go home SG?

zebulonthered - December 27, 2009

Sg – Did you ever notice that god doing things according to his plan and timing looks an awful lot like random occurrence? What is the point in praying if god has it all laid out? Doesn’t that road lead to a total absence of free will?

5. SG - December 27, 2009

zebulonthered — not sure i understand the test or the reason for the test. If it is not for His Glory then wants the point. Sorry i don’t see any positive motive in the test. If the whole test is about you two poor souls asking God to now jump on his right foot, oh okay well that was easy…let see you jump on your left foot then the test is beyond dumb. If you feel like testing God then go and and tithe, this is the area that you can test God in.

You must also read from John 14:5 – 14:14 to see what the meaning of the passage is saying. Your response implies that you have made up your mind about what the verse says according to zebulonthered. Sorry to burst your bubble but it just doesn’t work that way.

It may appear to be random to a non-beleiver, but God has empowered you with free will within his plan. It is up to you to decide what your own personal fate will be based on the factual evidence.

Jetson — it took you long enough to say absolutely nothing except that atheism is faith based since you can not have 100% certainty that God does not exist.

zebulonthered - December 27, 2009

Are you saying that it would not bring glory to your god if he proved to the world that he is real? He must have an odd sense of what constitutes glory. I read 5-14 and I don’t see how that helps you any or how 5 -13 change the obvious words of Jesus in 14. Please show me how to doublethink out of the promise Jesus gives in these verses. I hate to burst your bubble but the gospels have been shown to be written by people who never met Jesus, 60 or more years after he was suppose to have died. I think the word that best describes them is allegory.

So please, stop trying to wiggle out of it. Bring glory to god and do the test. I’m sorry that you can’t understand it, maybe if you reread the above post and think about it the meaning will come to you.

zebulonthered - December 27, 2009

SG – One more thing… “It is up to you to decide what your own personal fate will be based on the factual evidence.”
What?!?! Please show me this “factual evidence”.
I would love to hear about it. All this years and someone finally has “factual evidence” to prove god is real! I am so excited.

zebulonthered - December 29, 2009

SG – Where did you go? I’s still waiting for the “factual evidence”. And your god is still waiting for his glory.

6. SG - January 3, 2010

zebulonthered — Gone for the holidays, you know Merry CHRISTmas, Happy New Year. A little work and lots of rejoicing in between friedns and family.

Oh where was I — Factual evidence, the Book of life lines up perfectly with the Book of the Bible. The miracles that Jesus performed have been documented by several eye witness. He came to fulfill over 300 documented miracles and human impossibilities as noted in the old testament. The scientific discoveries including the God particle and many discoveries in Quantum Physics all point to a creator/designer aka GOD. The list goes on with Factual evidence but another key element is by my faith. A spiritual connection to God is also Factual Evidence.

In the end you are free to dismiss any and all and distort it from reality but it does not make it real. I often wonder why atheists are even more consume with God than believers, this must be a very cruel curse since you can not say with a 100% certainty that God does not exists, this fact must make for a torturing life of constantly having to voice out that God does not exists when he really does.

Here is a clip from From the Swillpit Chronicle, i think he said it best:

Remember Sigmund, how he was obsessed with the question of “God” till the end of his life. It was even the subject of last book. Today, dear Dickie Dawkins is following suit. His chart-busting book, The God Delusion, marks the apogee of a career built around the question. It is a cruel irony that the more they insist the matter settled, the more their thoughts are haunted with it, and the more their lives are directed by it.

That’s because the Enemy has stacked the deck. He fashioned them to run optimally when they are filled with Him. If they try to run on anything less, sooner or later, they will experience a itch they can’t scratch, an unease that won’t subside, or… an irrepressible need to rant about a Being that does not exist (funny, how the irrationality of that rarely occurs to them!).

It is the natural consequence of maintaining the swirl of contradictions that their unbelief imposes upon them — like the insistence of universal human rights in a universe bereft of a rights-Giver. For the tortured soul who values intellectual integrity, keeping the throng of conflicting notions suspended requires constant effort that, for some, just becomes too much.

Oh, how many we have lost in their twilight years! Who could have imagined that the most celebrated atheist of his time, Tony Flew, would have abandoned a lifetime of disbelief? I fear the same fate awaits our dear Dickie.

jetson - January 3, 2010

Oh where was I — Factual evidence, the Book of life lines up perfectly with the Book of the Bible. The miracles that Jesus performed have been documented by several eye witness. He came to fulfill over 300 documented miracles and human impossibilities as noted in the old testament. The scientific discoveries including the God particle and many discoveries in Quantum Physics all point to a creator/designer aka GOD. The list goes on with Factual evidence but another key element is by my faith. A spiritual connection to God is also Factual Evidence.

Assertions. Evidence is required to prove any of these.

In the end you are free to dismiss any and all and distort it from reality but it does not make it real. I often wonder why atheists are even more consume with God than believers, this must be a very cruel curse since you can not say with a 100% certainty that God does not exists, this fact must make for a torturing life of constantly having to voice out that God does not exists when he really does.

Not knowing whether God exists is more honorable. Asserting that He does without evidence is not.

7. zebulonthered - January 3, 2010

SG – Your inability to read and understand makes me sad….

jetson - January 3, 2010

What you wrote, you claimed as fact, when it clearly is not. You make assertions based on your personal belief in God, which is fine, but you do not back up these assertions with testable, reliable, falsifiable, objective evidence or tests.

You have no way of proving that your assertions are factual at all, yet you claim they are. There is literally nothing more dishonest. I have a friend who I work with who carries a faith coin in his pocket. He admitted that he cannot prove that God is real – that is honesty.

For the record, there is no need to be sad, I do what I do with joy and excitement for life and humanity. Thinking for myself, as opposed to being told what I should think, is worth every minute I spend on these topics!


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